Thursday, March 26, 2009

Mystery Gun

Saysuncle posted this picture of weaponry that the US media claims is being bought here and smuggled into Mexico. I see quite a bit there that is most certainly NOT coming from U.S. gun shows or gun shops.

Anyway, what's the pistol on the far right of the picture? It looks to have a magazine well forward of the grip, which I believe makes it illegal to purchase in the U.S. without an NFA tax stamp and all of the extra regulations that go with that. (of course it's entirely possible I'm wrong)


none said...

Nah that looks like a tec 9 clone.

Some states tried to ban tec 9 type guns so maybe thats where you heard that.

I'm sure that rocket launcher came from Walmart.

Sebastian said...

Magazine outside the grip doesn't make it NFA. If it's a pistol with two grips, or a smooth bore pistol, it's an AOW.

Like the previous poster said, it's a TEC 9 clone. A lot of olympic target pistols also have magazines outside of the grip.

Mike W. said...

Ah, guess I need to correct my post.

I don't know much about NFA items since we can't get the stuff here in DE.

Unknown said...

I was wondering if those guns, what the Brady's are saying add up to 90%, are being purchased illegally for the most part. If they're the kinds of guns that legal FFL guys can't handle, then they must be coming from the black market. Does that change anything? Not for me. Legal gun owners can, of course, shrug their shoulders and do the old "not my problem" routine. You've always gotten a lot of mileage out of the old "criminals don't obey the laws anyway" line. But, what's probably going on is the thousands of FFL holders near the border include a large percent who will do some under-the-table business. Maybe that's where these guns come from.

Mike W. said...

"But, what's probably going on is the thousands of FFL holders near the border include a large percent who will do some under-the-table business. Maybe that's where these guns come from."

What's "probably going on?" Based upon what? Your gut feelings? If illegal sales ARE going on at certain dealers then the ATF needs to prosecute those dealers and shut them down.

That is of course assuming the ATF actually has EVIDENCE of illegal activity on the part of the FFL, y'know, with due process and all that.

Facts Mike, Evidence. Do you have any?

dehakal said...

Is it just me or are all of the firearms turned so that their selectors are down and not visible so you can not see if they are semi or full auto?

Weer'd Beard said...

The M-16s, The Mini-14, and the LAW, as well as the Sigma likely ALL came from the US....and were sold to the Mexican or other South American govenments (I know Grenada's Military used Mini-14s and Ruger 556s. Also I know S&W has been selling Sigmas to police and Military forces for decades now.

Heck even sounds like many of the hand-made guns from Pakistan are showing up in the Cartel Coffers

mike's spot said...

I would venture those guns are coming from the US. . .Government.

We give the Mexican Government a lot of weaponry, from our military armories to theirs, and from theirs, apparently to the streets.

Mikeb302000- even a dodgy gun dealer, the anti-gun person's wet dream- who sells guns to kids and felons and magically dodges every BATFE inspection with his or her magic wand, could not get his or her hands on live grenades and LAWs. Those are from someone with a military connection. Plain and simple.

my guess is this:

many of those guns originally came from the US military during our involvement in South America in the 80s, and have funneled their way back north.

are some from US gun shops? maybe, but I'd be surprised if it were more than few. The paper trails are just too thick and too hard to hide.

buying guns that are 'paperless' is a bit of a fantasy.

I still don't get how I, a legal gun owner, is responsible for the black market.

Is every medical doctor responsible for illegal trafficking of prescription drugs?

Also, MikeB I don't understand part of your post and I need some clarification (seriously on this)

you say:if they're the kinds of guns that legal FFL guys can't handle, then they must be coming from the black market.

then later you say: a large percent of who (FFLs on the border) will do some under the table business.

Legal and Illegal FFLs alike can't get this stuff- those statements contradict. What is it you were trying to say?

Though I respect your dedication to your philosophy, I really think your going out of your way to ignore some important information.

mike's spot said...

PS MikeB- My Doctor analogy, if I am understanding you - is the equivalent to your gun owners being responsible for the black market.

it just doesn't make sense- I know we discussed this before, but I believe at best you are grasping at straws, and at worst are intentionally malicious and trying to frame non-equivalent statements as logically equal in an attempt to spread misinformation.

the pistolero said...

But, what's probably going on is the thousands of FFL holders near the border include a large percent who will do some under-the-table business.
You just proved, beyond a shadow of a penumbra of doubt, that you have absolutely no idea whatsoever of how the gun business works in this country. You really need to sit down and have yourself a nice, steaming cup of shut the fuck up and leave the discussion to the people who know what they're talking about.

Anonymous said...

Just one little point here. Where did the LAW and the hand grenades come from? I'll give you a clue; not from a gun show or a gun shop in the U.S. of A. They very probably came from the Mexican Army. For decades, elements of the Mexican Army have sold protection and weapons to criminals along the border. That is why the Mexican government has to send units from Mexico City and the interior to combat the drug lords along the border. The military units in the north are in the back pockets of the very people that they are supposed to be fighting.

The numbers are misleading, because the ATF reported that over 90% of the weapons seized in crimes in Mexico "came" from the US. They did not say that these weapons were purchased, stolen or otherwise taken possession of in the US. "Came from the U.S." could just mean that they were manufactured here. All of the weapons in the picture very likely cams from sources inside Mexico.

Unknown said...

Mike, I'm more of the grasping-at-straws type than intentionally malicious. The reason is what Pistolero said, that I don't know what I'm talking about. But, actually by arguing with you guys I have learned a little.

The contradiction in my comment about the FFL guys is that I picture there to be a large gray area among gun owners in general as well as among FFL holders. Many of the latter, I've been told, operate out of their homes, small enough to not have a proper shop. The gray area is right in the middle between the out and out criminals, the ones who flaunt the law and haven't been caught yet, and the righteous guys who go straight as an arrow. In the middle you've got all kinds of guys who may bend the rules a little or who believe their 2nd amendment rights include weapons that some laws may proscribe. You know the type. I know the type too, because I used to be one, and if I lived inthe States and decided I needed to be armed to protect my family, I'd be one still.

I was just wondering if that could help explain the 90%. But, I must admit, the idea that the stuff comes from a military source is interesting.

Mike W. said...

My FFL works out of his basement, yet has a valid license and follows the law to the T. Who's telling you this crap Mike? The brady campaign?

Mike W. said...

"criminals, the ones who flaunt the law and haven't been caught yet."

Mike, this is America not Italy. People who "flaunt the law but haven't been caught yet" are called innocent people

Weer'd Beard said...

Mike W. Remember, MikeB lives in New Jersey, not Itally (he claims a lot of things that aren't true)

he's "Grasping at straws" simply because he KNOWS the law and KNOWS what he claims is untrue.

Bottome like, MikeB is an emotionally troubled individual who feels the need to troll pro-freedom sites to validate somthing inside his sick mind.

the pistolero said...

Many of the latter, I've been told, operate out of their homes

So what exactly are you getting at? And whatever that may be, do you have any reputable evidence to back it up? Besides Brady/VPC/IANSA propaganda?

mike's spot said...

Ah- I think I see the source of confusion.

Small shops, or people who run businesses from their homes, are still under federal (and often state) scrutiny to the same level as the most major shops. EVERYONE who has an FFL01 (the license required to deal firearms)is subject to ATF inspection. if ANY paperwork is incorrect for any purchase, it triggers an investigation. the laws on this are very strict, and if you live in NY like I do, you also must submit to state inspections at any time as well as get additional state licenses.

All of these hoops make it so there is 'no gray' area. it costs well into the 4 digits to operate in NY- no dealer is going to try for a quick backdoor sale that would land them in prison, and have them lose the opportunity to EVER perform their job again.

when you say you 'used to be one' I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean, think the 2nd amendment applied to weapons that are illegal for us (civilians) to own, or to deal guns illegally.

I believe firmly in the second amendment, but I will not operate outside the law to show my support or disdain for legislation.

If your suggesting you did, and you are in fact a law breaker with regards to firearms, then you might be a felon who just didn't get caught.

I'm not sure what you meant, so I'm not suggesting you are- but then I would say by your prior logic you are far more responsible for any illegal gun trafficking in the US than any of us law abiding gun owners are, because you may have actually actively supported it.

Also, I'd be interested to hear your opinion on the doctor analogy I gave.

Home on the Range said...

Where are the guns coming from. From Walmart? no. From Uncle Fred's Gun and Pawn? No.

Perhaps if the serial numbers were released we'd know.


Mike W. said...

"Perhaps if the serial numbers were released we'd know"

Yup, and who are the folks refusing to provide serial numbers of these weapons?